AN EXCHANGE ON REDDIT

 

THE QUESTION:

My church is ordaining a woman and I’m not sure how to feel about it. My understanding of scripture has always been that pastoral positions are reserved for men. I’m trying to make sure I’m not jumping to judgment on this. What say you Reddit?

RESPONSES: This is a recent exchange on REDDIT.  I am in burgundy. The other colors are other writers.

God specifically outlines that men and women have different places within the church. Women pastors go against scripture. The exception being if the entire body is only women. 

 

The time in which the Bible was written has to be taken into account here. The ways women were and still are treated in Middle Eastern cultures doesn’t always align with realities in Western cultures. I believe wholeheartedly that women like Joyce Meyer were given a calling and do a very good job preaching the Lord’s word. She’s one of many examples of women being called by the Lord to preach so if the Lord tells a woman it’s her calling to become a pastor are you saying the Lord is wrong? Being a man I find it funny to not embrace women who have a gift and while I agree both Paul and Timothy say a woman cannot be a preacher, I believe the Lord wants all his children to be saved and if the path to salvation comes at the guidance and direction of a woman preacher then that’s His will being done and we’d be using scripture to go against His will in action.

 

You are saying the timeless God was taken unaware that Western cultures would do what they have done. That is blasphemy and Joyce Meyer is a literal catalog of false teaching who has a stated animas from her own mouth against one of God's choicest servants, Paul, who was directed to write what he wrote by the Holy Spirit. People were misconstruing Deborah who was a judge to be a pastor which she was not.

Either you believe the Bible or you don't, and there is ample evidence of how far from God Joyce's teachings are. It is best to check everyone out. I often tell those to whom I preach to check me out! I preach at least twice a week, and we are held to a high standard by God - stricter than people in general.

 

 

I think, if we're looking for what the Bible has to say on the matter, it's easy to get hung up on a couple verses that are often taken out of context or hard to understand (head coverings, anyone?)

If we look at characters and themes, however, we see Priscilla helping to teach Apollos (a woman teaching a grown man, and teacher to boot?), Phoebe, Lydia, Esther, Miriam, Huldah, and Deborah. The irony of the last one is that the story highlights the failure of men to step up, and so God uses whom He will, even though it's culturally embarrassing.

Women in the Bible are teachers, elders, deacons, prophets, and more.

Please understand that I'm not trying to be "woke" or anything along those lines, but as far as men or women in leadership I don't really care what their biology says: I want to know what their character is. I want to see a person who exemplifies the Spirit of Christ, knows the Bible backwards and forwards, and is capable of communicating those things to others.

Waaaay too many men have failed as church leaders because of lack of character, and we keep elevating people like this simply because they are charismatic men who are gifted in oratory. We bring in "pastors" from the outside and choose them based on how well they perform in the pulpit, without really getting a sense of who they are as people. I've seen multiple churches in my city burn through man after man, called "pastor", many who have brought disunity or even church splits. That is the worst kind of shepherding I can imagine.

But you know who's always stepping up behind the scenes? Godly moms and Sunday school teachers who teach generation after generation. They are often even instructing our young men until they reach the age our culture decides they are "adult" (which is a different age than it was in Jesus' time).

I am a middle-aged man, but I will gladly receive teaching from a woman who is humble, demonstrates the fruits of the Spirit, and is full of integrity, rather than a man who is an eloquent speaker trained formally in rhetoric and biblical studies but devoid of strong character.

 

 

All scripture must be taken into account. Christianity is not a buffet religion where we eat only what is appealing to us while leaving all else behind. 2 Tim. 3:16.

 

In my opinion, if scripture teaches that we no longer follow a written code, that cannot be dismissed buffet style either. I believe a harmoniously reconcilation of the two is that all scripture is profitable (that is, helpful) for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but not profitable for determining a written, infallible code of right and wrong. The Bible guides but does not claim to be an infallible code (following the letter) especially in the New Covenant.

"[5] Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, [6] who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 ESV

"[14] For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”" Galatians 5:14 ESV

"[4] Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant [5] or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; [6] it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth." 1 Corinthians 13:4-6 ESV

 

So the  Holy Spirit is fallible? The word is perfect. Man's ideas are not. Neither you nor I know more than God or are in a position. To decide what to obey and what not to. Many churches have adopted your position and they are unrecognizable as Christian institutions. I have been I. Christ almost seventy years and devour the Bible. People love to say how different we are from 2000 years ago yet growing up, all women covered their heads in church and except for some fringe groups and some Pentecostals all pastors were men. The majority of black children had both a father and mother in the home and divorce was relatively rare. If someone got pregnant they birthed the child rather than taking pills and flushing it down the toilet.  The truth is we are different from only 65 years ago. What changed?  Wholesale dismissal of the scriptures and moral codes accepted by most even if not Christian. I do not live in a bubble but lead a ministry in several states and talk with a lot of people with varying positions on the issues. I have yet to find a single church that advocates what you do that has produced good spiritual fruit and where the lives of the people mirror the character of Christ. On the other hand, I see incredible decline with rampant premarital sex, with one female AG youth pastor in NJ saying she had no expectation that the youth in her care would emerge from their teen years as virgins.  Purity in that was the NORM in our Bible-believing church growing up. I had a query from a Lutheran lady pastor for work who was in a lesbian relationship and littered the churchyard with LGBTQetc signage. A church in Texas actually sponsored a Drag Queen show. My wife had been in a female headed church - the pastor being the first AME-ordained woman minister. She was very harsh, the men were enfeebled, and my wife had to leave.  The bottom line is that churches that follow scripture thrive, even with fewer people, and those that view it as a buffet inevitably compromise on the core issues of holiness. I have yet to see an exception. Incidentally, I was a youth pastor in a Pakistani church years ago and all the girls covered their heads when praying, just like their mothers, and my wife puts a net on her hair as a sign of submission. I never demanded that, and I believe that long hair can be a covering as well as the scripture seems to allow for that, but the Pakistani practice is clearly compliant and very beautiful.

 

Read Psalm 119 which is all about the Bible. The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross and Jews have not sacrificed animals for about 1954 years. Christ and the apostles taught none of the Ten Commandments, with the tenth on the Sabbath clarified to reflect freedom in Christ. In terms of daily compliance with the character of God, the New Testament notes the faith of those who came before Christ and we are privileged to clearly know what pleases God as it put it all on writing. I have had a business for 45 years, and we put it in writing. When people do not, there are endless challenges as people have selective memories. 

 

I am curious on precisely which parts of the Bible you wish to ignore. You should make a list and that will tell you everything you need to know if you are honest with yourself.

 

I actually think it’s fundamentalists like yourself who are too prideful to properly interpret the Bible. It’s ironic to imagine that you can read a verse like 1 Corinthians 7:12 “Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord…” by Paul, admitting that not everything he says is a direct divine Commandment - but ignore it because you think you know better.

 

First which of the five fundamentals of the faith do you disagree with? 

1.      The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9). 

2.      The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).

3.      The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:25, 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:12-14).

4.      The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).

5.      The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Ps 12:6-7; Rom 15:4; 2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20). 

Those are the fundamentals. We reject all MAN-MADE rules which are of no value against fleshly indulgence. Some so-called Fundamentalists are by far not unique in that regard - those who liberally interpret the scriptures have their own sets.

The Bible says not to slander. I am a servant of the most high God set aside as a minister of the Gospel and have been in his kingdom for almost 70 years. I have read the entire Bible numerous times (three times before the age of 12) and am not a biblical illiterate. I have produced almost 3000 radio programs, many of them verse-by-verse messages, so the Bible and I are not simply occasional friends. I am determined to teach what the scripture says without compromise, but our ministry organization founded in 1985 was forced to bring people together regardless of denomination, race or economic status. I have preached in a wide range of churches, even in places where I disagreed with much of their doctrine.

You will note that Paul in THIS INSTANCE made the statement you noted which means all the rest of what he said was NOT emanating from him but from the Holy Spirit. Wise leaders will always make the distinction as to whether what they are saying is a clear word of God or their OPINION of what God wants. When it comes to controversial subjects like the sequence of the end times, I make sure to distinguish what is an arguable belief and what is pure scripture. Private interpretation is forbidden, yet I see many Bibles with the preacher's name on them which contain sectarian and arguable interpretations. I avoid all of those.